Trädvy Permalänk
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Maj 2012

Extreme TEC chiller experiment with Antec

Hello, and welcome to this experiment to get as cool temps in my rig to get the highest overclocks as possible

First of all, I would like to give a big thanks to Antec for making this TEC chiller experiment possible

And Monsoon for some fittings:

As said, the point of this TEC experiment is to cool down the water temperature in my rig to get some nice overclocks. The rig is not final yet, but it's coming along really nice and you can se more here; http://www.sweclockers.com/forum/143-projektloggar/1190550-bu...

But here a sneak peak;

But back to the chiller;
As the title say this is a TEC chiller. In short a TEC/Peltier can transport heat from one side to the other, and by that make one of the side cold, but the other warm. To know more look here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect
The TEC does this just by using electricity which is why a TEC is a genius invention.
However TEC's are not that efficient just yet, which is why they are not that common use in things like a fridge (but they will perhaps become in a few years).

But their inefficiency isn't that big a problem for this experiment since we just bump up the numbers of TECs and power for them should be no problem (except if the electric system in my apartment can't handle that amount of Watt's).

So the idea (for a TEC chiller in general) is to block the TECs in between two water blocks. The "cold-side" water block will be incorporated in the rigs loop (no radiator in this loop when the chiller is in work) so that the water will get cooled down and the hardware should get some low temperatures and then high overclocks

The "hot-side" of the "TEC sandwich" should of course be cooled (or it will most likely melt). But the lower the temperature of the "hot-side" the lower the temperature of the "cold-side" we can get. And since the experiment is to get as low temperature as possible, the cooling for the hot-side is also in the extreme category (more on this later )

TEC's
Right now it looks to be these TECs;
http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs/pdf/12711-5M31-24CZ_spec...
How many is still a bit uncertain, but it will be at least 12 of them (perhaps 16).
But if you have any other ideas for some better TECs, please speak up.
They will be run with 12V, so have this in mind

Water blocks
The water blocks for the "TEC sandwich's" will be custom made in copper and plexi top.
The internal design for the water block is not still decided, but so far I'm looking toward something like this (Design from Skyrip at Overclock.net);

But perhaps with smaller and more of the squares to create some turbulence and high surface area that should make the blocks efficient to transfer heat to the water
But other designs are more then welcome as well

So there you have my idea for an extreme TEC chiller.
I don't know if I will make subzero temps when bench with just CPU or one GPU or the whole system, but the hardware will be isolated to cope with the possible condensation

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Maj 2012

Last weak a heavy package came (guess from who ):

And within that a few more packages;

Can you guess what is inside those packages?

If you thought fans, then you were right

And lots of them (56 of them to be precise)

Some nice fans with Double ball-bearing and able to move a good amount of air with 2000 rpm. Properly a bit noisy, but that really doesn't matter for me, they just need to move a lot of air. But if silence is needed they can always be slowed down to 1200 rpm.

But for this project I'm also in need of quiet a lot of thermal compound, and it have to operate at both high and low temperature along having good thermal conductivity. Which Antec also have supplied

Some nice Formula 7 with diamond particles (not sure if they really do the trick to getting lower temps, but it seems like a good thermal compound):

But there is plenty of it, which is needed for all the TEC's and the SG09 build's hardware

Antec did also through in a bit extra for my three U2711 screens (could use some cleaning after some 2 years of use )

So that's it for now. Next step would be to get the water cooling for the "hot-side" loop home (guess what all those fans are for ), and to decided which and how many TEC's I should get and order them (so the water block also can begin to take shape/design them).

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Plats
Kristianstad
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Jan 2004

Pretty Cool experiment as you have potential to reach temps close to zero or in best case temps down to some lower sub zero temps depending on the water substitute in cold loop as you cant use pure water for that.

Looking at the data from the techs you linked, at 12V they should operate at roughly 18A. With the system in sign with a good overclock should you land at roughly ~700W, 12 tecs sharing that load would give you a DeltaT of ~45 degres so potential to push it to close to zero or even sub zero if you manage to keep the hot side cold enough. With 56 fans do I assume you got a pretty nice stacks of radiators inc and you will need that as you get like 3000W to cool on that side ^^

ps, why not just go with phase change cooling, lower temps and probably both cheaper and easier in this case?

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Maj 2012
Skrivet av lanbonden:

Pretty Cool experiment as you have potential to reach temps close to zero or in best case temps down to some lower sub zero temps depending on the water substitute in cold loop as you cant use pure water for that.

Looking at the data from the techs you linked, at 12V they should operate at roughly 18A. With the system in sign with a good overclock should you land at roughly ~700W, 12 tecs sharing that load would give you a DeltaT of ~45 degres so potential to push it to close to zero or even sub zero if you manage to keep the hot side cold enough. With 56 fans do I assume you got a pretty nice stacks of radiators inc and you will need that as you get like 3000W to cool on that side ^^

ps, why not just go with phase change cooling, lower temps and probably both cheaper and easier in this case?

Well, I'm hoping for the lowest temps.
And yes the cooling of the hot side water is not a problem. What may be a problem is if my custom waterblocks cant transfer that high amount of heat to the water = the water blocks will be my bottleneck for cooling the TEC.
But we will see

As for the TEC, well I think it's fun to design and put together, and haven't seen anyone doing TEC chilling on this size in some time now.
Not saying that phase it's good, I just find TEC's so cool

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Maj 2012

So I have come a bit further in with this project

The following wasn't meant for this chiller, but for my SG09 build that was planned long ago.
That's also why they have the colors that they got (not Photoshop, but spray painted).

And yes, that is a Phobya External Radiator "Bench edition" stand, along with a D5 pump in a EKWB X-RES 140mm housing that have been spray painted white.
The stand only comes in black, and I ran out of paint on a Saturday (this summer), and haven't come much further since.
BUT it will get painted just as white as all the rest.
Then pump will also get a slap of paint. Not sure if I should go green on it or white like the rest.

On the other side we got the 9x120mm radiator that is 45mm thick, along the 120mm fans from Antec

I think that the plexi fans are looking really well with the rest, and I will look much better when the radiator stand will get all white.

Another package came this Friday including some of the best looking fittings right now (I do think that acrylic tubing and fittings looks nice, but for me Monsoon fittings and their colors are just the right thing )
So thanks to Monsoon for sponsoring some fittings for this chiller project

If we take a closer look at the pump/reservoir, you can see that it's not the normal water that is running round in the little loop.

I have always like the way that some colorful crystals was floating around in a liquid up in chemistry lap.
But most of those crystals was either expensive or very toxic.
So when I saw that Mayhems had made a similar product for watercooling, I new I had to have it.
The liquid is Mayhems Green Aurora.
(pump settings was "1" = the lowest)

But the Aurora is not ideally for this chiller experiment, so when that time comes, I will have found something more suitable.
The Aurora was for the looks in the SG09 build

Doesn't those beautiful Monsoon fittings deserve a picture in focus?, I do believe so

Now before we end this update, soe of you may think; "that painting will get you higher temps".
And yes, that is correct, BUT again this was intended for the SG09 build, which really doesn't require a radiator like that, but I really like silence (or my girl does), so I got the radiator.

As for the chiller, one of these is clearly not enough for the amount of heat I will put into that loop.
But that's also why there is coming two more of these in (just 60mm thick) and all three of them will have push pull (that's way the 56 fans )
I do think that should do the trick

Just as a closing picture (don't stare to long at it), the structure of the radiator stand and radiator in background:

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Medlem
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Jul 2011

What the hell? I was just thinking of trying cooling with a TEC-module, didnt think anyone else on sweclockers had done it. Apparently a bunch of people already have.

Skrivet av SFruergaard:

But the lower the temperature of the "hot-side" the lower the temperature of the "cold-side" we can get.

Are you sure about that? I mean Tec-modules work best when the temperature difference is as high as possible and you just keep the hot temp as close as possible to the max temperature it can handle. or will having the hot side as cold as possible just mean it will use a lot more energy?

And btw, since you dont attach the tec right to the cpu (if i understand correctly), will you put anti freeze in your water loop?

| Fractal Design XL R2| 2x Gigabyte 680 Gtx@1254/7300mhz | Asrock Z77 OC Formula | 3570k@4.5ghz(1.36v) & Phanteks PH-TC14PE | 16gig hyperx beast series@2133mhz | Fractal Design Newton R2, 1000W 80+ | Samsung SSD Basic 840-Series 512GB | 2TB Toshiba 7200rpm SATA6 | 9x Scythe Glide Stream 2000rpm | 2x Bitfenix Recon Fan Controller | BenQ 27'' XL2720T 120Hz + Dell UltraSharp 27" U2713HM IPS 2560x1440 | Sennheiser HD595

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Apr 2011
Skrivet av deadich:

Are you sure about that? I mean Tec-modules work best when the temperature difference is as high as possible and you just keep the hot temp as close as possible to the max temperature it can handle. or will having the hot side as cold as possible just mean it will use a lot more energy?

TEC modules will "try" as much as possible to retain the temperature difference at it's specified level, which means that a colder hot side equals a colder other side.

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Maj 2012
Skrivet av deadich:

And btw, since you dont attach the tec right to the cpu (if i understand correctly), will you put anti freeze in your water loop?

Yes, the used water will have anti freeze properties at the used range of temperatures.

And as Marcusk said, the colder your hot side is, the colder the cold side is
That's why I need all that cooling

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Jul 2011
Skrivet av SFruergaard:

Yes, the used water will have anti freeze properties at the used range of temperatures.

And as Marcusk said, the colder your hot side is, the colder the cold side is
That's why I need all that cooling

I've seen several people say it's the other way around, but i think they are wrong because i think they just misunderstood something. Here's my thoughts.

So the more current you add to the TEC the colder the cold side would be and the hotter the hot side would be. I think this might be were the misunderstanding occurs, because the reason the cold side is getting colder is not because the hot side gets hotter, but because of the increased current. This makes sense to me but I'm still not completely sure because from what i read people are pretty much 50/50 on this subject.

On the other hand, if you look at a generator that uses the Seebek effect larger difference on the hot and cold side means its more efficient.

| Fractal Design XL R2| 2x Gigabyte 680 Gtx@1254/7300mhz | Asrock Z77 OC Formula | 3570k@4.5ghz(1.36v) & Phanteks PH-TC14PE | 16gig hyperx beast series@2133mhz | Fractal Design Newton R2, 1000W 80+ | Samsung SSD Basic 840-Series 512GB | 2TB Toshiba 7200rpm SATA6 | 9x Scythe Glide Stream 2000rpm | 2x Bitfenix Recon Fan Controller | BenQ 27'' XL2720T 120Hz + Dell UltraSharp 27" U2713HM IPS 2560x1440 | Sennheiser HD595

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Maj 2012

Hi all

Now with Christmas over and exams, I'm once again back to hopefully finish this build and the TEC cooler.
Also Happy New Year

This update isn't a big one, but I am in need of your help
I'm not at big water flow engineer, so if you got any ideas for at better water block for the TECs, please let me know

Currently I got this designed;

This will be in copper and it is 6mm high (with the squares 4mm(height)x2mmx2mm) and will get a acrylic top (where the inlet and oult will be and at each end).
Holes in the sides are for screws and springs to press the two blocks around the TEC tight together

There will then be one at each side of the TECs.

The question is if this block is good enough for the amount of heat they need to take up and give to the water (4 or 5 TECs + some of the hardware load = approx. 1000w)?

Also Skyrip have suggested that I could use direct cooling of the TEC's instead (where the water runs directly over the TECs).
Something like that he have done here;
http://forum.highflow.nl/f34/super-cool-14427/index2.html

It would make it a lot cheaper and easier to make.
But I'm in doubt as to how well it would work, due to there is limited restriction (just a plain surface).

So if you got any suggesting for the water blocks please let me know

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Maj 2012
Skrivet av deadich:

I've seen several people say it's the other way around, but i think they are wrong because i think they just misunderstood something. Here's my thoughts.

So the more current you add to the TEC the colder the cold side would be and the hotter the hot side would be. I think this might be were the misunderstanding occurs, because the reason the cold side is getting colder is not because the hot side gets hotter, but because of the increased current. This makes sense to me but I'm still not completely sure because from what i read people are pretty much 50/50 on this subject.

On the other hand, if you look at a generator that uses the Seebek effect larger difference on the hot and cold side means its more efficient.

I'm not totally sure, but you need the current to generate the effect (of course), but a to high current also create a higher temperature due to resistance.

I just know they work and will use them

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Maj 2012

So that last of the watercooling gear have arrived
I would like to thanks aquatuning.de for there sponsorship of these parts along the parts for the SG09 build
But back to the good stuff;
As I said, I do no believe that radiator cooling will be my bottleneck, and here's why:

One big, fat 9x120mm radiator (60mm thick)

And when you place that in a Phobya radiator stand along 18 Antec fans it looks like this:

That is a heavy setup, and there is one more of those along the white/green radiator (45mm) posted above

And they cool really well.
Right now the green/white radiator + D5 pump is cooling a mining rig with a HD 7990 + 2x HD 7970 down to the cores are at only 44 degrees and water around 37 degrees (and that is a 24/7 setup)
And that is with only four 180mm fans at 700 rpm.
So the three of these radiators with push pull configuration with the 2000 rpm should be more than enough for this chiller

I also got some extra stuff, like an extra D5 pump to help in the cold loop and four temperature sensors (green LCD of course) and a lot of screws for the fans:

Some of the Monsoon fittings also arrived, and quite a lot of them;

And when taken out and assembled it looks like this;

Beautiful

But this is not all of them, actually these are just around half of what I need for this chiller and SG09 build (around 30 pcs. both fittings and angle adaptors).
Some of the are in the mining rig, others are not yet bought due to uncertainties of how many TEC waterblocks that will be made (how many fittings is needed).

And once again, thanks to Monsoon for sponsoring some of their fine fittings, and I must say you are right;

"Bling is good"

As for the TEC waterblocks I will go with the long thin lines, but have had time yet to design/draw them.
But should happen soon and hopefully I will find some cheap (but good) copper at that time.
(if you got a link to a seller in EU (that ships to Denmark) please post it )

I don't have that much more, except that I got a new pump for the SG09 (other one burst into flames) and I swapped out the GTX 670 4gb cards for a new;

A nice Gigabyte GTX 780 TI thanks to my friend at Coolgamers.dk

It came as rev 1.0, so thought It was the reference PCB design, but luckily it was the custom more powerfull design

I tried the card, and I must say it performs well and is really silent. Even in game after many hours of play, I cant hear it even with the case open (bot only at stock clocks for now and 1.5 meters away from case).
So that will be the card that will get chilled
(maybe another one will come along as well if my wallet is up for it).

And EKWB is making a full cover waterblock for it (yea), bot it will first get released in late February :-/
But when under the chiller it will be with a core block only (either custom one or a EKWB block), and with heatsinks on Vram and VRM.

So that's it for this time, any questions is welcome, and link to a good but cheap copper retailer is appreciated